The Digital Village Show

The Digital Village Show: Are you concerned about data monetisation?

Season 2: Episode 3 with the legendary Katryna Dow.

If you’re in the slightest bit concerned about who controls and monetises your data – you need to listen to the next 45 minutes!

In Episode 3 of season 2, The Digital Village team, Jason and Paul, are thrilled to be joined by Katryna Dow.

Katryna founded Meeco in 2012, which is building a personal data marketplace of equals.

Prior to this Katryna Dow had an extensive career travelling the world as a strategy consultant and after a stint exploring commercialisation models for personal data.  She then seed-funded Meeco, which launched its first public platform in July 2014.

Splitting her time between Australia and Europe where Katryna is actively involved in the IEEE Standards community, Co-Chair for the Personal Data and Privacy Committee, and Chair for the new P7006 – Standard for Personal Data Artificial Intelligence (AI) Agent.

Katryna, Jason and Paul will be diving into the depths of data, the concerns and risks surrounding its use in business and how the future technologies of blockchain are helping to improve the use, security and privatisation of your data.

Apologies for the audio in advance, as we update our equipment, we had to use a different room which as you can hear, was a bit of an echo chamber…but we promise it doesn’t detract from the incredible guest speaker.


Katryna Dow

Post Grid #4

How To Choose The Right Technology For Your Business.

Steven GreenSep 20, 20225 min read

Technology is a key driver of success and provides a solution to many of the challenges faced by businesses today,…

Podcast Transcription

Speaker 1 (00:00):

Welcome to the next episode of the digital village podcast to show that tackles the tech trends impacting business economy and the planet. In today’s episode, we welcome Katrina Dow, CEO, and founder of Miko. As we explore the issues surrounding data monetization. So sit back and enjoy it.

Speaker 2 (00:17):

Well, hello and welcome back to the digital village show, a podcast that stalks interesting people in the tech sector, and then holds some hostage until they’ve explained to us what they’re doing to save the planet. Hi, Ja. How you doing?

Speaker 3 (00:31):

Hey, Paul. Good to see you again.

Speaker 2 (00:32):

Nice to be back in the room with you mate. Already

Speaker 3 (00:34):

Been, uh, sooner than expected actually, but I’m excited by that.

Speaker 2 (00:38):

I’m glad to hear you. Yeah. Good. Good. Anyway, our guest today has willingly agreed to come and talk to us. <laugh> before she returns to Europe at the weekend, she’s here for Australia’s, um, blockchain week, which has been, uh, an event over six cities, over 200 speakers, um, covering the topic of blockchain and everything. Uh, good and bad about it. If you are the slightest bit interested or concerned about the controls, um, that that are in place and the monetization that there is of data going on, you’ll need to listen to the next 40 minutes. Our guest is one of the world’s leading advocates for giving people and the organizations, the tools to S and control and create mutual value from personal data. The company she founded in 2012 is building a personal data marketplace of equals. Prior to this, she had an extensive career traveling the world as a strategy consultant and after a, a stint, uh, exploring commercialized models for personal data sets, she seed funded Miko, which was launched, um, in July, 2014 or launched its first public platform in July, 2014. So she’s, spliting her time between Australia and Europe, where she’s got a development team. She’s also actively involved in data sovereign. He now as a founding member and my data global, which I know she’s gonna go on to talk about later. Welcome Katrina Dow. Lovely to have you here. Very excited to have you as our guest today.

Speaker 4 (02:15):

Thank you. What an introduction. I feel very honored.

Speaker 2 (02:18):

Well, you’re an extraordinary person. And, um, how’s your week been? How’s this, um, blockchain we’ve been for you.

Speaker 4 (02:24):

It’s been fantastic. It’s been wonderful to, first of all, be seeing people how nice that we’re all having these three dimensional human experiences. That’s pretty good. Uh, it’s been wonderful to see some of the people that are here from different parts of the world, um, from H bar foundation and Dera. So we’ll talk a little bit about that. We will. Um, but mostly it’s been wonderful to see our team here in Australia. So having been away for a while, that’s been a big highlight

Speaker 2 (02:58):

The highlight of the week, or has there been anything else that you’d like to share with us?

Speaker 4 (03:03):

Uh, I think the, I mean, there are many highlights over, but we’ve got, uh, a couple of announcements that we will make this week. So is now the time to do that.

Speaker 3 (03:15):

It was a loaded question.

Speaker 4 (03:16):

I say, I feel like that was early and often. Yes.

Speaker 2 (03:20):

<laugh> I think to, to keep, to keep our audience online, honestly, very much like it’s old back on

Speaker 4 (03:26):

Announcement. That’s, that’s exactly what I was

Speaker 2 (03:27):

Thinking until we get, uh, somewhere

Speaker 4 (03:29):

Towards, but one highlight was, uh, a dinner earlier this week. That was a big highlight. Yeah. The, the dinner, uh, hosted by, um, H bar found and the ability to sit with like-minded people. I mean, it was at cafe Sydney. It was a beautiful evening. Was the opera house, the Harbor bridge, beautiful food, beautiful company. Um, great community. Yes. Everyone talking about the possibilities for the future. So I would have to say that was absolutely a highlight

Speaker 2 (04:00):

This week. It was, and we were very privileged, Jason and I to be there as well. And, and I took away the same thing, the energy in the room, the excitement about what’s happening in the blockchain community right now, it really genuinely felt like we’re getting some momentum going.

Speaker 4 (04:14):

And I think a big shout out to Rob Allen from pulling us all together and making that happen so quickly. Yeah. Was a really wonderful evening. Absolutely.

Speaker 3 (04:21):

And it was some significant change that people are bringing in this. The people at that dinner was very interesting to, um, to hear what everyone was doing and how they’re applying this technology. And there’s some, some really serious change going on quite quickly. So it’s really interesting to see, to speak to everyone like that.

Speaker 4 (04:36):

And I think maybe that’s the highlight overall of this week is to see the acceleration, but also the diversity of different drivers. Yeah. Um, and everything from startup sustainability world right through to enterprise. Yeah. And everything in between and

Speaker 2 (04:55):

Everything between

Speaker 4 (04:56):

Yeah, yeah. Yeah.

Speaker 2 (04:57):

So, so I wanna take you back to 27 to team when you wrote an article that was, had the extraordinary title of Shakespeare’s blockchain that got my attention straight away. And at the front of the article, you actually put a quote from Hamlet and I’ll just read this out, this above all to the ownself be true. And it must follow as the night, the day thou can be thou, sorry, I got it wrong there. Thou can not then be forced to any man. So why Shakespeare and why that quote,

Speaker 4 (05:36):

Well, why Shakespeare? Um, how many episodes in this, uh, series <laugh>, um, I mean, it’s all there and if, and if you read that post and first of all, thank you for reminding me about that because, uh, I I’d completely well not forgotten about it, but I reread it today thinking about, um, our discussion. And I realized at the time, um, you know, it was the end of 2016, early 2017, which in blockchain years, which I guess are more like dog years, you know, that’s a long time ago. Yes. And there was so much happening. And the point of Shakespeare, I think for me is everything is in Shakespeare, you know, love war tax, accounting, murder, you know, everything is there, the human condition. Yes. And

Speaker 2 (06:28):

I hope you’re not gonna tell us that there’s murder in block <laugh> okay. All right.

Speaker 4 (06:33):

And I think at the time, uh, it, the combination of being really, really excited about what was happening, um, but also some concerns that if we think that we will fix the human condition with technology, then, then it’s really naive. And so were we thinking enough around the things that block chain distributed led to were, were uniquely designed for bringing transparency, breaking down barriers? Um, I think it is really a, a, a tectonic kind of social shift. And I, and I personally think it’s the precursor to an evolution of our monetary system and, and our demo and the way that our society is evolving, but it was still relatively early days. And, and there were things that weren’t going according to plan. And so the whole idea of writing that blog post was to say, this is great, but if we aren’t learning either from history or Shakespeare or, or if we’re not looking at some of the pitfalls, um, if we don’t design those corrections in, then we’re gonna inherit some problems down the road.

Speaker 2 (07:49):

And what do you think has happened in the last five years of, of any of the things that you were concerned about then happened?

Speaker 4 (07:58):

Uh, I think, I mean, look, when I wrote that post, it was off the back of the, the first big public, um, Dow the, the, the, um, uh, the offering that I think was, I don’t know, maybe at the end of 20, was at the end of 2016. And again, what prompted writing that was, there was a code of ethics for all the developers that were working on that. Right. And, and that, that raised 150 million U S D you know, and it happened kind of almost overnight. And there was a really clear code of ethics. Um, there was a clear set of principles for developers working together collaboratively. There was some rules around security. Um, but as in any structure that requires governance, those ethics and those codes of ways of working were not coded into the code. Right. Yeah. So the human condition says you come along, you spot a vulnerability and what happened, 50 million U S D drained out of the fund overnight. Wow. And, and so I guess that was the first, really big reckoning, um, where you had Ethereum, you know, stepping back and originally there was a recommendation for a soft fork. Let’s, let’s work out what we will do to resolve this, which ended up being the, the hard fork. Um, but it was, it was a reminder that we had training reels on with real money and real lives. Yeah. So

Speaker 2 (09:29):

Learning is, they went

Speaker 4 (09:31):


Speaker 2 (09:32):

Anything, nobody had a rule book.

Speaker 4 (09:33):

Exactly. And, and the other thing too, is, you know, a lot of very young people without, um, you know, the, a lot of life experience. Exactly. And I, I mean, with, with no disrespect, but again, back to the Shakespeare idea, you know, you’re around for, for, for time and, and you experience a lot of things in life that you learn from, but if you are in your early twenties and everything just looks like it’s code, um, yeah. It’s a, it’s a completely different way of understanding the consequences. Yeah. And I think the thing we learned out of that was governance. And if you want something to be coded, if you want rules and you want things to operate in a certain way, then you have to, you have to lay them down as code, but you have to understand what those things are in order to lay them down. Sure.

Speaker 2 (10:22):

So before that, um, you got, uh, Miko off the ground in 2012. Yeah. Um, and launched the platform in 2014. So, so what were your goals? You started that, and I’m asking this question in the context of the, the title of our podcast here, which is my data, my rules. Yeah. So did you, at that time have a desire to see some kind of change in the, in the sort of power struggle between personal and corporate data?

Speaker 4 (10:56):

Absolutely. But I think more than that, it, it was, it was that it was becoming more and more obvious that we were becoming fi and, and that, that’s a word that I borrow from Martin Letz. Who’s the founder of a, of, um, uh, trend wolves in Belgium who focuses on sort of youth trends and what is happening sort of on the edge for young people. And how does that sort of make its way into mainstream? And, and, and what was really obvious was that we weren’t physical. We weren’t just physical, you know, and we were not completely digital. And as we were moving into this world where we have a digital twin and we were developing this kind of, um, new asset base, all this data, we didn’t actually have a way to equitably sort of, um, participate. And so it wasn’t like, Ooh, big enterprise, bad, you know, evil.

Speaker 4 (11:53):

Um, you know, we, the people are going to overthrow everything. It was more like, well, actually as an evolution, what we need now and new structures to access control and exchange data in a more equitable way. Why, because if data flows, you’re able to make better decisions, what happens if you make better? Well, you have better outcomes in life. You have better financial outcomes, you have better health outcomes, you have better relationship outcomes. And it just seemed crazy that that decisioning would just be with enterprise and institution and government and you, and I wouldn’t have the power to make those better decisions.

Speaker 3 (12:33):

So, so how do you see that evolutionary process take place, especially with those big organizations who are their whole business model is driven around our data. And so how do you kind of see them stepping away from that? What does that mean for them into the future?

Speaker 4 (12:49):

So I think the, the good news now, and sort of 20, 22 is that we, we are starting to see organizations want to be on sort of the right side of digital history. Yeah. And, and without getting into, you know, who’s good, who’s bad. Um, you know, if you wanted to, to draw sort of a line in the middle of, of some big tech, you know, you have kind of Facebook and Google on one side that, that stumbled across the possibilities of exploiting the code. Yeah. Which is no different to kind of what happened early days, blockchain. It’s like, wow, here is a way where you can show cat pictures and then make billions of dollars because people just love to share cat pictures. So, Hey, let’s do that. Um, and that model has kind of perpetuated, and I think one of the big challenges right now for a company like Facebook is that let’s flip that and look at what’s happened recently and let’s put apple and Microsoft in another camp, and that’s not to say, um, you know, everything they do is good, but I think they have a different moral compass.

Speaker 4 (13:54):

When you look at, at, um, their leadership. I I’m sure that they they’re sitting in rooms saying, well, what side of digital history do we wanna be on? And do we want to make great products for people, or do we wanna make people into products? And so you have that privacy move by Tim cook recently that impacts Facebook with having the largest, um, drop in terms of shareholder value in a single day, you know, and, and massive impact, I think, is it 10 billion to revenue? And so I think where fast forward to where we are today compared to when I started, uh, Miko, the difference is we can start to, to measure now like real shareholder value in terms of, if you say to a customer, you, you can choose between privacy and convenience or user experience and being surveilled, or you can have a great experience and you can choose whether or not someone tracks, you guess, what people choose not to be tracked like hello. Um, and the fact that that has been, uh, I guess, commercially advantageous for apple and had this impact on Facebook says that things are changing of

Speaker 3 (15:10):

Telling of the times, isn’t it? Yeah, yeah.

Speaker 4 (15:12):


Speaker 2 (15:12):

So going back to, when you actually formed Miko, how much of, of that thinking was already established and how much of it have you learned since then?

Speaker 4 (15:20):

So combination. So, so the, the inspiration for the company, I’m a mad sci-fi fan was the film minority report, which I’d seen 10 year as before. And it just seemed like there, it was such a dystopian view that if we, if, if everything was driven by data and, and, and we were sort of, um, at the, at the whim of the data Lords, it seemed like it wasn’t a really great human an experience. So, so there was that there was that I guess, philosophical, emotional driver to, Hey, someone should do something about that never ever occurred to me that it would be me. It was just in the back of my mind. Like that’s not a great future. When I thought that I wanted to do something different, the end of 2011, I started looking at what the world economic forum was saying around digital identity, the value of data early 2012, I wrote our Manifesta, which was really around this idea of making better decisions.

Speaker 4 (16:21):

What if we, what if we had the ability to do that, but to validate sort of the next step, Facebook was about to do their IPO. And so I’d come from a strategy background. And it was like, okay, what are the threats? What are the opportunities? So I read their IPO document and there were three or four things that jumped out in their risks. Not that they were saying, Hey, market beware. But to me, it was clear that they were concerned that people could become aware of the value of their data. There could be privacy concerns, there could be regulation. And at that time, their business model was moving from desktop to mobile. So becoming quite opaque. And that was kind of the beginning of a whole host of issues, particularly with, with young people that are, that have now played out sort of 2012 for forward 2013 forward to be creating, um, a whole range of challenges around the health and wellbeing of, of young people.

Speaker 4 (17:25):

Um, because of some of those decisions, those design decisions that were made by, by, by Facebook, back in 2012. So at the time it was like what RF, there was a privacy security by design platform that didn’t access and monetize your data that worked within a regulatory framework and provided the infrastructure and the tools for that, a more equitable way. Um, I was really too early at that point, because it seemed like this whole thing, like the Cambridge Analytica moment or the, or the whatever was gonna happen sooner. So I think, I think we always, you know, is it, we, we overestimate underestimate, you know, how fast things happen. Um, and it was the right direction, but a lot of learning along the way.

Speaker 2 (18:13):

Yes. And I’m, and I’m sure at that time, there wasn’t the awareness that there is now about the impact of some of this. Yeah. And I’m, I’m going to refer to age of surveillance capitalism, which I know you’ve read as well. Um, where the author, uh, uh, Han oo, is it, um, opened our minds to this narrative, um, with a, with a fantastic allege, um, which I’ll just read here is I think this is actually just opposed from the, uh, from the internet, not actually in the book, but it, it really does kind of highlight the issue beautifully. Imagine you have a hammer that’s machine learning. It helps you climb a grueling mountain to reach the summit that’s machine learning’s dominance of online data on the mountain top, you find a vast pile of nails cheaper than any, anything previously imaginable. That’s the new smart sensor tech, an unbroken vis that a Virgin board stretches before you, as far as you can see, that’s the whole dumb world.

Speaker 2 (19:17):

Then you learn that at any time you plant a nail in the board with your machine learning hammer, you can extract value from that formally dumb plank, that’s data monetization. What do you do? You start hammering like crazy, and you never stop unless somebody makes you stop, but there’s nobody up here to make you stop. And that was really the Ze guys to what was happening when those big tech companies, and I don’t wanna single anybody out, but we all know who they are started to realize the power they had by monetizing data. So that would’ve happened during the time you were setting up Miko and obviously beyond. So, so what, tell us what, how your view of, of your potential began to change as you saw the impact these big tech companies were having. So, so

Speaker 4 (20:11):

I think first of all, a lot of those decisions were made with volition just as we talked about, you know, Tim cook, sitting down and saying, okay, we’re going to gonna let iPhone users decide whether they wanna be tracked or not. We’re gonna give them the power to make that decision, the opposite conversations we’re having as in, Hey, we can do this and no one’s gonna stop us. Yeah. And look, the money is just pouring in. So I hope I’m alive long enough to be able to understand how that period of history is reported through the eyes of, you know, generations, you know, two or three generations ahead. Yeah. Because I think it, it reminds me of, um, of another piece that I wrote some years ago called, um, I think seatbelt cigarettes and data. And, and that was, you know, I’m dating myself here, but, you know, child of the sixties grew up in the seventies in Australia, um, cigarette advertising on television, cigarette advertising everywhere in every sporting game.

Speaker 4 (21:18):

Yeah. Um, uh, I went into after school care, the, the woman that was looking after me sent me down to the local shop to buy a packet of Fs, you know, and I’m like, I was too small to even see over the counter, you know, could you imagine that now? And yeah. And the other thing is the first car we had as, as a child had, you know, we had a car accident, which I thought at six was the most amazing thing, you know, the car spinning around and we stop in front of a pub and someone comes out and gives us lemonade. And it’s like, Hey, when can we do that again? It was great, but we didn’t have seat belts. And, and just because you could do that with cigarettes and you didn’t have seat belts, I think what people think is the way things are at a certain time, is the way they will be mm-hmm <affirmative>.

Speaker 4 (22:05):

And it gave me, I guess, maybe some premature confidence that everything that you’ve just described was a moment of time. Like everyone was going, Hey, we can do this and get away with it. But what we’ve seen in the automotive industry is that all of a sudden, uh, the welfare of everybody meant regulation, um, from a health perspective, you know, from an age perspective, from an advertising perspective. So it occurred to me if we’ve seen these things where the kind of public good, there’s some sort of intervention for public good that it would probably happen with data. And I think, I think when you look to the EU, it’s happening faster, I mean, here in Australia, we now have the consumer data, right. In California, you have CCPA, you have, you have probably more emphasis in the us around financial data and, and credit rating and people feeling that they’re disadvantaged, you know, maybe by machine learning and things, Europe has taken a more citizen centric. So we are seeing things change for the public. Good. Yeah.

Speaker 3 (23:12):

So, um, GDPR was a massive step in the right direction in terms of privacy and human rights. How do you see, um, I guess regulation or those regulatory bodies, what kind of say and control will they have in a more decentralized world?

Speaker 4 (23:29):

I, I think one of the big challenges for regulators full stop is that technology is moving so quickly. Yeah, yeah. That the regulators can’t keep up and the, and good regulation is reached by consensus and the trouble with that is that takes time. Yeah. And it, and it, and it’s this, it’s constantly sort of trying to find this middle position. And so that’s both, um, the linear aspect of time unfolding, and it’s also people being prepared to negotiate. Meanwhile, back to what’s happening in big tech, they just kind of like, wow, we’re on the mountain and no one is stopping us. So let’s just keep going. So, so I think that’s, that’s a problem. I think the other thing is when you look at things like blockchain distributed ledger, it comes back to that the whole purpose of, of talking about Shakespeare, just because a new technology is emerged doesn’t mean those things that are inherent in our behavior have gone away.

Speaker 4 (24:28):

Yeah. Yeah. And I think, I think the big shift and maybe where regulation is starting to help, you know, we, we’re starting to see, uh, countries around the world saying that they will look at a centrally backed digital currency or, or that there needs to be a more mature conversation about cryptocurrency, um, or digital currency, or actually you can settle, um, across a border, a payment in seconds without it costing a gazillion dollars. Yeah. And, and that we have these layers and layers and layers of inefficiency. Um, and then who ends up paying, you know, it’s the, the, it’s you and I at the end of that. So I think when we’re starting to have more mature conversations with regulation, it creates clarity. So I think that really helps. Um, and I think going back to that 2016 post where we are today is where we’re starting to see the importance of governance. Yeah. And so regulation can either be carrot or stick, um, in the EU, GDPR is a good start, um, that will be followed by the data governance act and a number of other, um, pieces of regulation that are designed to try and build a more equitable digital market in Europe. But the reality is, is they’re competing against China, which has a completely different approach and the us, which is really, really, um, commercially driven. So you’ve got citizen centric, you’ve got state driven. Yeah. And you’ve got C driven. Yeah, exactly. And who’s gonna win.

Speaker 3 (26:04):

Yeah. And is there a need for standardization across all of that? You know, I mean, I guess with new technologies, there comes a lot of new ideas, new ways of doing things and, um, standardizing, like coming to an agreement on how everything is going to talk to one another and, and work. Um, I guess I see that as being a massive challenge.

Speaker 2 (26:26):

Well, particularly with, with you a way that web 3.0 has been described as being set up, it, it, it doesn’t, it wouldn’t recognize these borders between state and public and government, I guess.

Speaker 4 (26:41):

I think the, the exciting and frightening thing about web three is it is going to be the most immersive and connected experience that we’ve ever known from a technological point of view ever in the history of humankind. Yeah. I think

Speaker 3 (26:56):

It’s really hard for people to start getting their heads around. You know, if you’re thinking about how, um, old everything can be tokenized, it’s a really, it’s a kind of a concept that is quite mind blowing when you think about it changes our whole interaction, the way that we engage with people in the world our whole day to day. Yeah. Um, how far away do you actually think that that world is?

Speaker 4 (27:18):

It depends on how old you are and who you’re talking to, because if you are a young person that’s living in side Minecraft or Roblox, it’s here today, right. It’s there now, you know, and, and I think this is one of the, the, the challenges, um, you know, and I include myself and my sort of stage of life is that, you know, you get to a certain place where you have the means or, or the experience or the, the power to be, you know, designing and shaping things. Um, and, and that’s why I think the work that Martin does at trend wolves is so important because you have to remember, okay, that’s the world that you are in now that you’ve evolved towards, but there’s a whole other world that is shaping where, how, um, people collaborate work to get other solve problems, uh, exchange value, you know, that is happening for a digital generation.

Speaker 4 (28:11):

That is really, really, really different. And so it’s also part of the reason why I really think we’re going to have a, a big shift in our, um, monetary policy and the way we create an extra range value, um, because we’ve got generations now who have grown up or are growing up in an immersive game driven digital world. And you can’t basically say to somebody who’s 13 today in three years time, okay. Now you are an adult give up those ways and come into the physical world and go back to decades. Yeah. It’s, it’s the user experience, the, the collaboration, the immersive experience, the user experience, the connectedness that will all be expected, but it’ll be expected in think banking, ride share, seeing a doctor booking an airline ticket. And so I think if we wanna kind of understand what would that look like spend a day inside Minecraft, and then imagine how you build a bank. Yeah,

Speaker 3 (29:21):

Yeah. So, so what does that mean between, you know, the lines of geography and country and society that we put up between cultures and everything in between, you know, um, where the whole world is, you know, if it’s, you know, using gaming as an example, um, Chris is sitting here he’s like super engaged and he loves his games. <laugh> um, and you know, so Chris can be playing with, um, someone in all different parts of the world and having a really common understanding around trade and, um, working together and all and, and, um, commerce and everything. And so if that gets lied to the real world, um, what does that mean for the kind of government structures and everything that tries to tell us who we are?

Speaker 4 (30:10):

Look, while we are recording this, we have this impossible to imagine horrific situation in the Ukraine happening mm-hmm <affirmative> yeah. In, in our time and <affirmative>, and we don’t seem to be able to stop it, or, or, or the diplomacy of stopping. It could be the trigger to something even worse. And, and again, this is my personal perspective. I think everything that you’ve just described now is that the world is getting smaller. We’re becoming more connected, but in that Shakespearean way, are we ready for it yet? And what it’s doing is it’s kind of pushing the old way of thinking. Let’s put up walls, let’s put up borders. Let’s, let’s exert that control, which is also sort of part of this evolutionary, you know, shift. And, and that is not to minimize just the heart wrenching horror of what’s happening right now, but it is indication that things are evolving and not everyone is comfortable with that.

Speaker 4 (31:21):

And a natural way when things are moving quickly is, is to exert control. And, you know, we see that in, we, we see that, um, right now from a military perspective, but we see it, you know, sometimes with regulations, with trade, we see it with the fact that there’s a lot of 10, you know, within society, these ideas of left and right. And I think it’s an indication and technology can help solve that in some ways, but not if you don’t work out some, what some of those underlying factors are, which, which comes back to this idea of how do we get the right data to make better decisions and

Speaker 3 (32:06):

Agree and agree on. Yeah,

Speaker 4 (32:07):

Exactly. Exactly.

Speaker 2 (32:09):

So that’s really interesting. I think, um, we all feel, you know, sadness for what is happening in, in the Ukraine. It’s a, it is a terrible situation. It’s hope that by the time this goes out, um, there’s been some, some kind of resolution of that, um, situation, just bringing you back to, um, to yourself, uh, Katrina and the relationship that you’ve got with Hadera. I know that that you’ve, um, just recently, uh, announced that you are getting even closer to them, um, and that you’ve chosen, Hadera your underlying distributed ledger tech platform. Can you describe the rationale you went through for making that decision, um, and what you expect to emerge as a result of the relationship?

Speaker 4 (32:57):

So, so that was, was a very, um, it was a very considered and deliberate path for us. Um, we, we had been doing a lot of work, you know, going right back to sort of 20 14, 20 15 with Bitcoin Hyperledger, Ethereum R three quarter, um, we’d built some proof of concepts. We’d done some work around zero knowledge proof. So we’d, we we’d looked at pros and cons. Um, and we started doing some really interesting work with FPOS here in Australia, uh, in 2020, um, around what became, um, connect ID. So digital identity. Yeah. And at the time we, we did our first sort of proof of con set proof of technology with them, uh, using Ethereum and at the time F O started to talk to, um, Hadera hash graph about joining the governing council. And so Rob Allen at the time was the entrepreneur in residence at, uh, at F OS.

Speaker 4 (33:55):

And he approached us after the first proof of concept and said, would we sit up, um, working with them on sort of a world first, a micropayments, um, proof of technology. Um, but would we consider using hash graph, um, uh, the move to Hadera? And so, as soon as I started to dig in with the team, it was really obvious that there were a number of things about had that were really compelling governance, the consensus, the cost, the security, the scalability. Um, at that time we didn’t have the proof point on, on carbon neutral mm-hmm <affirmative> and the big, uh, incentive from a sustainability point of view. Um, and that came later, there were, there were lots of reasons. And I think for us, the most compelling reason is we were doing a lot of work, uh, around digital identity verified credentials. And it was becoming increasingly obvious that when people wake up in the morning, they, they don’t necessarily go, Hey, I wanna use my identity today, or I wanna prove I have a university degree.

Speaker 4 (35:01):

They’re doing that in the context of something that’s meaningful to them, um, you know, booking a flight enroll in university, whatever it is. And so what we loved about Hadera was the possibility that that stack could be extended into both payments and really exciting, um, of the tokenized world. Yeah. Tokens. And so that was a big part of it. And, um, that leads me to, uh, kind of, uh, the announcement, uh, and that is that with the support of the H bar foundation, we are working on a new open source, uh, capability, which we’re calling trusty, um, which is a way to explore visually it’s a, a way to visually explore the trust and Providence of an NFT of a token of a, of a, of a carbon offset, um, to be able to look at that whole chain of Providence, the policies that are involved, um, and then also, uh, support that with decentralized identity wallet. And, um, we’re also doing some really interesting things around zero knowledge proof. So we’re very, very excited that

Speaker 2 (36:16):

Is also them.

Speaker 4 (36:18):


Speaker 2 (36:18):

We’ll definitely put some something in the notes with the podcast to link people to that information that really does sound interesting. So, uh, so what can we expect that to result in, in the next year or so we gonna see any outcome from this?

Speaker 4 (36:33):

Yeah, I, I think first of all, it’s open source, so we wanna see more community growth. Um, I think back to the highlights of this week, that sense of people around a table with different ideas and, and how that community grows. I think one of the challenges that we have as we go from the old world to the new world is this idea of, of trust. And, um, it comes back to this issue of governance. And so what we are hoping, um, uh, we will achieve with, um, trusty is a way of helping people understand what the tokenized world is about this web three world, um, how you can trace things with some confidence, how you can understand the policies that, that govern, um, this tokenized world. And so I, I think one thing is helping to educate, build confidence, build trust, and if you have those things as foundations, then it’s another way of helping to, to scale out that change.

Speaker 2 (37:37):

And it’s, it’s definitely what the industry needs right now. I think one of the challenges that, that you’ve got is, uh, it’s quite hard for private individuals, even companies to really engage with a lot of these things, conceptually, but if you’ve got tools like trustfully that are gonna help you visualize the, the things that you’re getting involved in, you know, it suddenly becomes very, very real,

Speaker 4 (37:59):

You know, it’s just gonna say, I mean, if, if you look at the design, it’s, it’s a little bit like discovering an album cover yeah. Right. For, and then, and then sort of, you know, flipping it open and seeing the yeah, exactly. And I mean, I, that’s probably, that’s probably a very old school, seventies vinyl explanation of the digital world, but

Speaker 2 (38:20):

The only thing you need to do is to add the smell. Yeah. <laugh> yeah. If you can add the smell of that first record that you opened <laugh>,

Speaker 4 (38:27):

But you know what I mean? It’s that, it’s that, I mean, I I’m, I’m hacking back to those days of, you know, buying a vinyl record, taking it out of the sleeve. Yeah. You know, having the lyrics and, and sort of being part of that whole creator experience. And I think that’s, what’s so exciting about what’s happening in the NFT space what’s happening in the token space is, you know, and back to this idea of this immersive experience that, that young people have every day is, is how you closer to creators, how you understand when something was created, how it was created, how it moves from, from creator to, um, you know, to the next and, and or, or how you are offsetting something like carbon or, or what you are doing, how it’s contributing to, you know, sustain or some of the big challenges on the planet. And we talk about these things, um, and we want to know these things are effective. And the whole point of trusty is to try and to provide that way of exploring, discovering, validating, um, as a means of, of laying a foundation for that trust.

Speaker 3 (39:35):

Yeah. Cause it’s, it’s, it’s the big thing with, um, with, with blockchain and, and NFTs and things like that, because the, the average person they’d be like, well, that’s great that, you know, you can say that’s completely traceable and that it’s, um, auditable and everything like that, but, you know, show me, show me yeah,

Speaker 4 (39:54):

Exactly. And with a money. Yeah, exactly. So many. Yeah.

Speaker 3 (39:57):

So it sounds like a, um, some kind of way for an individual to actually see, um, you know, the different points along the way where the, the activity that has happened, which I think is providing information that actually proves its value. Um, so that’s a really exciting,

Speaker 4 (40:17):

So I will use that. It’s the show me tool, but look in the physical world, you know, if, if you want to understand who owns a building, or who are the directors of a company, or when was a company incorporated, or, or what is the, who’s the author of this book, or when was this book published? You know, we have all these, um, ways of tracing Providence or, or being able to trust something within a legal context in the physical world. And I think what we are seeing now is how does that move to the digital world? And then what we add to that is some cryptographic proofs of being able to show that information, um, sources of data is not tampered with even that, that, that chain of trust has not been broken to build that confidence. So again, it’s, it’s us physical beings moving more and more into that.

Speaker 2 (41:09):

Yeah. And I think that’s becoming ever evident with, you know, what people experience when they start searching for everything and anything yeah. Stuff comes up and in a list, but there’s no understanding of the Providence of that information. Yeah. Yeah. The history of, and it’s really just got a lot to do with the kind of, uh, the skill of the SEO and the S SCM world in getting something to the top of the list as to whether or not it becomes the first thing you see.

Speaker 4 (41:35):

But also we have this massive shift now with the possibility of deep fakes and, and, you know, you’re seeing things that are, that just you’re looking at it. And you’re thinking, okay, I’m looking at Barack Obama right now. And he is wrapping. And it’s like, is it

Speaker 5 (41:50):

Really him doing

Speaker 4 (41:51):

This? And it’s like, I know it’s not, my brain is saying it’s not, but it is, but it’s not. And so I think absolutely to your point, it’s that it’s so easy also in the digital world to alter the experience and in an immersive digital world, knowing who to trust or what to trust or how to, or, or that old adage, you know, to trust, but verify, it’ll be okay, I’m getting this video from this source. And I know I can trust this source, or this is really in entertaining what I’m seeing right now, but it’s highly unlikely that it’s, it’s not real.

Speaker 2 (42:29):

Yes. Being able to make a, a, a value judgment on it, it’s becoming harder and harder. Um, we’ve, we’ve gotta draw things to a conclusion. Um, Katrina, thank you so much for coming to see us. It’s been a real pleasure having you and, uh, hearing the story of Miko, the work you’re doing with the Hadera group and H bar foundation. Um, I know you’re heading back to Europe, um, tomorrow, is it

Speaker 4 (42:53):


Speaker 2 (42:54):

Tomorrow? Tomorrow? Yeah. And, uh, so, so good luck with our journey and safe travels. Um, is there anything that we need to know about you from your past that you wanna

Speaker 5 (43:03):

Share with us? <laugh> what a question. No, like the answer to that is no, there is nothing you need that you, I intrigued me. No. Do I really want to

Speaker 4 (43:13):

Share? I know trying to make the end of this podcast interesting to listeners, but

Speaker 5 (43:19):


Speaker 2 (43:20):

I heard a rumor. I dunno whether it’s true or not, that, that you’re quite clean on keen on cleaning

Speaker 5 (43:26):


Speaker 4 (43:26):

Is that true? Okay. Okay. So first of all, to everyone listening, I was very young, right. Okay. First up early to early twenties, really early twenties.

Speaker 2 (43:37):

He’s 26 now.

Speaker 5 (43:37):


Speaker 4 (43:38):

Exactly. Traveling through Europe, no money. <laugh> uh, met some guys in Vienna Christmas time. I was about to go back to the UK. They convinced me to stay. We had nowhere to stay. Um, what do you do? It was with an English guy and a Russian guy. The Russian guy said, why don’t we borrow, somebody’s borrow apartment over Christmas, um, which I was horrified at the concept of such a thing. Anyway, it’s got a very long story short. That requires a lot more context. The place was filthy. Yes. Horror afterwards. Sorry. So I spent most of Christmas cleaning it as well as exploring their record collection. Um, van Morrison. Fantastic. They had some great final, uh, fabulous night for a moon dance again, which absolutely dates me. But I, to this day would love to have seen that family when they got back from holidays and walked in and saw their apartment, absolutely squeaky clean with everything, tidied up everything, the kids’ rooms, tidied up the bathroom, the kitchen and everything. So, yeah.

Speaker 2 (44:49):

And, and explaining to the police, you know, place has been broken into <laugh>. How do you know that it’s been broken into? Well, we came back and it was incredibly tidy. Excuse me.

Speaker 4 (45:01):

So, so I guess the moral of stories, if you do something you’re not supposed to do good, do good. Do good. That’s a

Speaker 2 (45:08):

Very, very good way of wrapping it up. Thank you.

Speaker 4 (45:11):

Love to see you. Thank you so much. Come

Speaker 2 (45:13):

Back and see us next time.

Speaker 4 (45:14):

You’re in Sydney. I would absolutely love to. Thank you.

Speaker 1 (45:20):

Hope you enjoyed today’s episode. Please feel free to check us out on our website, digital feeling truck network for our past episodes. We’ll be back next month on the last Wednesday of every month, as we are with more great stories. See that.

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